Why do forms have no counter? - Page 2 - Guild Wars Forums

moko · Apr 13, 2007, 11:46 AM // 11:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maximumraver

Crippling Aguish > Every Avatar\Form (Except Melandru's)
I could go on forever...

yeah go on please, the crap you post makes me laugh. lol, crip anguish is a hex, it doesn't actually cripple. >_>

ONOZ SOMEONE BEAT ME TO IT!

to the actual topic; why have actual form counters when simple shutdown such as hexes, blind, snares off all kinds and distraction exists?

Theus · Apr 13, 2007, 12:23 PM // 12:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mokone

yeah go on please, the crap you post makes me laugh. lol, crip anguish is a hex, it doesn't actually cripple. >_>

ONOZ SOMEONE BEAT ME TO IT!

to the actual topic; why have actual form counters when simple shutdown such as hexes, blind, snares off all kinds and distraction exists?

Because:
A.Any Half-assed Dervish is not going to use their forms the moment they go into battle.They'll use it before hand.
B.Any Half-assed Monk is going to keep their Grenth Dervish clean.It's a miracle if Blind even lasts longer than 3 seconds in higher end PvP.

Rutabaga · Apr 13, 2007, 01:05 PM // 13:05

weapon spell and asches can't be removed, is it overpowered?

Theus · Apr 13, 2007, 01:20 PM // 13:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rutabaga

weapon spell and asches can't be removed, is it overpowered?

There are no ritualist Ashes that remove Enchantments.There are no Ashes that give a player immunity to Conditions and an additional 100 HP.

There are no Weapon Spells that give players the ability to remove enchantments.There are no weapon spells that give a player immunity to Conditions and and Addtional 100 HP.

But if you think the only reason that these forms are overpowered are because of thier benefits,you're simply wrong.

It's the fact that these forms reside in a class that weilds a 9-41 damage weapon,and can cause large amounts of destruction on its own without a Avatar form.

Personally I'd like to see some sort of "Stamina Cooldown",as in a physical ability that takes a hold of you for using such powers.

I mean,Big deal,your Avatar of Grenth Duration just ran out,It doesn't mean you still can't unleash an asskicking.

Think about it this way:It's exactly like that of giving Warriors Skills like Warriors Cunning,except that one gives him the ability to remove an enchantment with every successful hit with an attack skill or a skill that gives him additional HP and immunity to Conditions,even if they run out,he can still lay into you quite easily.

Sea Edge · Apr 13, 2007, 01:35 PM // 13:35

Kill the dervish and the form is countered.

moko · Apr 13, 2007, 01:42 PM // 13:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theus

Because:
A.Any Half-assed Dervish is not going to use their forms the moment they go into battle.They'll use it before hand.
B.Any Half-assed Monk is going to keep their Grenth Dervish clean.It's a miracle if Blind even lasts longer than 3 seconds in higher end PvP.

and we obviously all have unlimited energy.

and sometimes you are forced to use the skills at risk, and any half decent ranger will watch you.

you cant compare weaponspells with avatars -- weaponspells can be spammed on multiple people, have a lot of different effects and whatnot.

ashes suck anyways.

- Tain - · Apr 13, 2007, 01:43 PM // 13:43

It's a few skills, and Dervs can do worse to you - deal with it... Weapon spells and chants/shouts are worse imo, but still balanced enough. At least shouts have a couple of hexes etc). But weapon spells, yeah... you would think you could snatch something out of the hands of a blind guy xD

HawkofStorms · Apr 13, 2007, 01:53 PM // 13:53

There long recharge which is unable to be affected by half cast or other equipement/skills is its counter. Dervishes using forms are only at max efficientcy for half the battle. There is a reason they don't see a ton of play in GvGs (after Grenth was nerfed of course).

zling · Apr 13, 2007, 02:04 PM // 14:04

forms arent the only things that dont have *specific* counters. shouts/chants/echoes and be stripped, spells that have a duration effect cant be stripped, traps have no counters, etc
no one seems to be complaining about the above, well they used to complain about shouts when the paragorn came out but that's it... and there is no reason to, as all of the above arent perfect, they all have their drawbacks and *natural* counters...

Str0b0 · Apr 13, 2007, 02:05 PM // 14:05

You actually answered your own question when you listed the possible counters to forms. Interrupts are perfectly viable form counters. With the exception of Melandru blindness works spiffily too since they all rely on their ability to hit you in order to dole out the secondary effects of the form. Where melandru is concerned pretty much any anti melee hex will do so long as it isn't condition dependent. Clumsiness comes to mind.

Zeph · Apr 13, 2007, 02:23 PM // 14:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by elektra_lucia

Spell breaker has a counter?

Yep. Chilblains ftw.

Tetris L · Apr 13, 2007, 03:17 PM // 15:17

There are many bonus effects in the game that cannot be removed in any way: Shouts and chants, weapon spells, glyphs, plain "skills", preparations, wells, wards, ... Actually, there are far more non-removable ones than removable ones: Only enchantments and stances can be ended actively.

Thomas.knbk · Apr 13, 2007, 03:26 PM // 15:26

Specific counters are crap anyway. General counters is what you want. and those work excellently against forms.

Curse You · Apr 14, 2007, 01:30 AM // 01:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spura

I'll be sure to quote you next time someone whines about echoes or chants having no good counters.

The counters also counter shouts, which are used by three professions, not just one.

Also, there are 39 shouts, 19 chants, and 10 echoes, most of which are non-elite. Add to that the fact that they cannot be removed once cast. I'd hardly say that the counters are unjustified.

Chilly Ress · Apr 14, 2007, 03:01 AM // 03:01

Er....One word. Interrupts.

Coloneh · Apr 14, 2007, 06:44 AM // 06:44

Forms counter themselves.

First, by sucking and having almost no useful effect for long enough to be worth an elite

and Second by being disabled for 120 seconds

Thomas.knbk · Apr 14, 2007, 08:14 AM // 08:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coloneh

First, by sucking and having almost no useful effect for long enough to be worth an elite

Is it gonna sound flamish if I say LOL UR BAD?

that, sir, is incorrect.

RhanoctJocosa · Apr 14, 2007, 08:41 AM // 08:41

Your thread is stupid. If interrupting, blackout, etc. aren't counters for the form; the skill, then wtf is? It's just like saying there is no counter for Mind Shock besides Dshot, Diversion, etc. If what you want is a counter to specific forms, such as Grenth's, snares and blind untill it goes down and use the clock to dshot it when it comes back. It should be very easy to dshot the form the second time around since 99% of players want it up as much as possible- unless of course they are under Guardian or something, which in that case you QQ about how imba it is and quit gw. ---- The crippling anguish not affecting a mel derv was pretty funny, i lol'ed = P

Thomas.knbk · Apr 14, 2007, 08:54 AM // 08:54

RhanoctJocosa wins the thread imo.

unbound00 · Apr 14, 2007, 02:21 PM // 14:21

I think the question was meant more in the ways of why can't it be removed?
Enchantments, hexes, conditions can be removed/prevented wether they are elite or not.
In the case of forms, once they're up there's just no use, you're gonna have to face it's fullest and the oponent doesn't even need to cover it (and if it were an enchant then derv would be very fit to cover it on their on). I don't think that helps much in terms of game balance. And if shout, chants, or whatever can't be removed/prevented either, then they too need to be analised, for instance why not 'enchantment shout/chant/form' and 'hex shout/chant/form'.
Sure you can counter stuff in one way or another, but a lot of the game is ways to make sure your build can prevent itself of being easily countered, and Forms need to make no effort in that.

Apr 13, 2007, 01:05 PM // 13:05	#23
Rutabaga Frost Gate Guardian Join Date: Mar 2007 Guild: Alcoholic Attunement [AA] Profession: A/	weapon spell and asches can't be removed, is it overpowered?

Apr 13, 2007, 01:35 PM // 13:35	#25
Sea Edge Ascalonian Squire Join Date: Jun 2006 Guild: Black Eagles [BEG] Profession: W/Me	Kill the dervish and the form is countered.

Apr 13, 2007, 01:43 PM // 13:43	#27
- Tain - Desert Nomad Join Date: Apr 2006 Guild: [SMS] Profession: R/	It's a few skills, and Dervs can do worse to you - deal with it... Weapon spells and chants/shouts are worse imo, but still balanced enough. At least shouts have a couple of hexes etc). But weapon spells, yeah... you would think you could snatch something out of the hands of a blind guy xD

Apr 13, 2007, 01:53 PM // 13:53	#28
HawkofStorms Hall Hero Join Date: Aug 2005 Profession: E/	There long recharge which is unable to be affected by half cast or other equipement/skills is its counter. Dervishes using forms are only at max efficientcy for half the battle. There is a reason they don't see a ton of play in GvGs (after Grenth was nerfed of course).

Apr 13, 2007, 02:04 PM // 14:04	#29
zling Desert Nomad Join Date: Apr 2006	forms arent the only things that dont have specific counters. shouts/chants/echoes and be stripped, spells that have a duration effect cant be stripped, traps have no counters, etc no one seems to be complaining about the above, well they used to complain about shouts when the paragorn came out but that's it... and there is no reason to, as all of the above arent perfect, they all have their drawbacks and natural counters...

Apr 13, 2007, 02:05 PM // 14:05	#30
Str0b0 Desert Nomad Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: North Carolina Profession: N/Me	You actually answered your own question when you listed the possible counters to forms. Interrupts are perfectly viable form counters. With the exception of Melandru blindness works spiffily too since they all rely on their ability to hit you in order to dole out the secondary effects of the form. Where melandru is concerned pretty much any anti melee hex will do so long as it isn't condition dependent. Clumsiness comes to mind.

Apr 13, 2007, 03:17 PM // 15:17	#32
Tetris L Jungle Guide Join Date: May 2005 Location: Germany Guild: Servants of Fortuna	There are many bonus effects in the game that cannot be removed in any way: Shouts and chants, weapon spells, glyphs, plain "skills", preparations, wells, wards, ... Actually, there are far more non-removable ones than removable ones: Only enchantments and stances can be ended actively.

Apr 13, 2007, 03:26 PM // 15:26	#33
Thomas.knbk Forge Runner Join Date: Jul 2006	Specific counters are crap anyway. General counters is what you want. and those work excellently against forms.

Apr 14, 2007, 03:01 AM // 03:01	#35
Chilly Ress Jungle Guide Join Date: Oct 2005 Guild: Kinetic Fusion [kF] Profession: Me/	Er....One word. Interrupts.

Apr 14, 2007, 06:44 AM // 06:44	#36
Coloneh Furnace Stoker Join Date: Nov 2006 Profession: D/W	Forms counter themselves. First, by sucking and having almost no useful effect for long enough to be worth an elite and Second by being disabled for 120 seconds

Apr 14, 2007, 08:41 AM // 08:41	#38
RhanoctJocosa Legendary Korean Join Date: Aug 2006 Guild: The Benecia Renovatio [RenO] Profession: W/	Your thread is stupid. If interrupting, blackout, etc. aren't counters for the form; the skill, then wtf is? It's just like saying there is no counter for Mind Shock besides Dshot, Diversion, etc. If what you want is a counter to specific forms, such as Grenth's, snares and blind untill it goes down and use the clock to dshot it when it comes back. It should be very easy to dshot the form the second time around since 99% of players want it up as much as possible- unless of course they are under Guardian or something, which in that case you QQ about how imba it is and quit gw. ---- The crippling anguish not affecting a mel derv was pretty funny, i lol'ed = P

Apr 14, 2007, 08:54 AM // 08:54	#39
Thomas.knbk Forge Runner Join Date: Jul 2006	RhanoctJocosa wins the thread imo.

Apr 14, 2007, 02:21 PM // 14:21	#40
unbound00 Ascalonian Squire Join Date: Mar 2007 Profession: N/Me	I think the question was meant more in the ways of why can't it be removed? Enchantments, hexes, conditions can be removed/prevented wether they are elite or not. In the case of forms, once they're up there's just no use, you're gonna have to face it's fullest and the oponent doesn't even need to cover it (and if it were an enchant then derv would be very fit to cover it on their on). I don't think that helps much in terms of game balance. And if shout, chants, or whatever can't be removed/prevented either, then they too need to be analised, for instance why not 'enchantment shout/chant/form' and 'hex shout/chant/form'. Sure you can counter stuff in one way or another, but a lot of the game is ways to make sure your build can prevent itself of being easily countered, and Forms need to make no effort in that.